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Deverenian Faction Focus 
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Post Re: Deverenian Faction Focus
Dutchess wrote:
AragornRoR wrote:
I agree that Nuri's nerf was terrible, but Scleus and Diane both deserved to be unique. They're insanely good.

So is Barret, Severed of Bone, As'sa, Bokos, Iam Hotelen, Kul of Clan Tergoth, Pagophoros, Sir Erik Kaisen, Vels of Clan Manaka, Vex Duntan, Enkida, Dragonkin... :shrug:

Which is funny cus we're the faction with the high level focus. lol

-Geoff

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Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:35 am
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Post Re: Deverenian Faction Focus
AragornRoR wrote:
I agree that Nuri's nerf was terrible, but Scleus and Diane both deserved to be unique. They're insanely good.
I would not want to play a game wherein Mother Deiane was not unique, but I think the MRP to Scelus effecting only your Deverenians was enough that he likely could have slipped through without picking up the unique trait. From day one with Scelus, he was not unique and was not overpowered except that in a Dev vs. Dev match he was stupid good. In a match with a non-Deverenian opponent, Scelus was just fine.

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Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:47 am
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Post Re: Deverenian Faction Focus
Kerebrus wrote:
* Upward pointing High level Focus: this has been with the Deverenians basically from the beginning. The pleebs support the warlords and powerhouse characters.


This is a cool idea, in theory. As it stands, I can count 6 Deverenians level 2 and lower I would include in a deck (and 4 of those are starting-army characters). Chroneus, Initiate, Caleb, Fendric, Slayne, and Nuri (and I have yet to put Nuri in a deck).

Basically, design is trying to justify high level characters that are good with low-level characters that are either extremely myopic in their design or flat out bad. And I italicized "good" in the previous sentence, because that's all devs have right now. They have good level 3 and 4 characters, but no very good level 3 and 4 characters (except Deinne, and she's a support cleric, so kinda doesn't count for this analysis). Design wants to perpetuate this design philosophy, but have completely ignored the fact that other factions have not only good characters in that level-range, but, in fact, great characters in that level-range. As an example:

Kul
Barrett
Validan
Pagophoros
Vex Duntan

Elves were almost the exception but they got Achilleus (even if they don't really have a good way to utilize him, right now).

Compare those characters to characters like:

Sir Magnus
Thibaud
Sir Edgard

The closest comparison comes from Mariah, but even she is outclassed. We almost got thrown a bone in CC with Temur, but he's good-aligned, making him vulnerable to Distrust and, more importantly, perhaps, making him not work with Lift up Your Voices.

Don't get me wrong. There are some very solid level three Deverenians (our level 3's are outclassed only by the Free Kingdoms), but it's pretty horrible grouping in terms of where the power lies in our faction.

Basically, I'd rather play Nothrogs, because with a Nothrog deck I can field a small saturation of high-powered level 4 characters as opposed to a large saturation of solidly "meh" level 4 characters. Quantity of playable characters does not beat quality of playable characters. The Devs probably have more playable level 4's than any other faction, but the overall quality of those characters leaves a lot to be desired.

Kerebrus wrote:
* Redirection / Cancelation: The Deverenians are the premiere faction for dictating (or at least attempting to dictate) where an opponent's strike lands (if at all)


I wish this were the case. There's either not enough of it, or it is hindered in some way. Caleb the Shifter is gold, and any deverenian deck that doesn't start one caleb is shooting itself in the foot. Deine is also great, and the same applies to her. I consider 1x Caleb (in the starting army) and 1x Deine to be mandatory inclusions for any Dev. deck in 4E. However, the line is drawn there. We have, effectively, 2 characters worth running for the redirection/cancelation effect. Nuri is almost there, but limited solely to melee strikes, he's not worth the include if for no other reason than a good 40% of this environment is saturated with ranged-strikes and non-melee targeting actions (thinking mostly wizards, here, but clerics do dabble).

The concept of throwing the "defend" feat onto random level 2's does not a coherent strategy evolve in terms of deck construction. Level 1 and 2 characters with Defend die very quickly, and are too finite a resource. Add to that the fact that they, in themselves, provide little to zero offensive capability is salt in the wound. Devs have a hard enough time fielding a solid offense given their sub-par character base without diluting the effectiveness of their offense even further by throwing in characters that will be dead within 1 turn of entering play.

Further salt in the wound? Any free kingdoms deck is better at the "defend" trick than the best dev deck given the inclusion of Arve Yscar and Aida in the environment. In conjunction with one-another, the Free Kingdoms army is easily outclassing the Deverenian one in terms of strike redirection.

Kerebrus wrote:
* Fire: This own is new, but it is a fairly organic jump from the old Deverenian War Waizard philosophy.


This was unneccessary and cumbersome. Giving us solid wizards would have been infinitely more appreciated than giving us wizards that are good only under the condition of fire spells being thrown.

-----------------

Fin.

-nihil

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Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:06 pm
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Post Re: Deverenian Faction Focus
Ya know, you could have said you just agreed with me Nihil since I wrote the same thing. :wink:

-Geoff

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Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:12 pm
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Post Re: Deverenian Faction Focus
I didn't read (and still haven't) anyone's post in this thread other than Kirby's initial one. He asked for opinions, not running discussions.

-nihil

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Darguth wrote:
I...agree...with Nihil

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You are correct on all counts.

Yamauta wrote:
Thank you Nihil. That badass post was one of the most informative posts I've ever seen here...

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...Nihil...When someone puts a keyboard in front of you, you become the worst kind of person. I mean Christ.


Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:28 pm
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Post Re: Deverenian Faction Focus
Nihilistiskism wrote:
I didn't read (and still haven't) anyone's post in this thread other than Kirby's initial one. He asked for opinions, not running discussions.

-nihil

No worries, just ribbin ya since you said the same thing to me a few months ago. :P

-Geoff

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Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:29 pm
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Post Re: Deverenian Faction Focus
My problem with the level 4's is that almost every other faction has lvl 4's that outclass the devs.
Chosen:
As'sa- while only planar and 2hp has an ability to make 1 melee strike able to kill any non-warlord equal or lower level character in one hit no matter if it has 2 or 35 hp.

Bal-Benoth- Comes into play at lvl 4, +10/+9 atk, 15ac, powerattack +10, 5 skill, 3hp. fighter/daemon. Ok, so I have to kill a character to put it into play, but since the chosen can mitigate that to almost nothing it's not a problem.

Master Fabas- ATK: +2/+0 AC: 14 Skill: 5 Hit Points: 2. Ok, so the stat's aren't so good, but with a single order (with as'sa this could mean killing an opposing character) he gets +4 atk, a +3 swing (as a react) and the planar & daemon traits until end of turn. so he ends up being ATK: +6/+4 AC: 14 Skill: 5 Hit Points: 2.

Pagophoros: ATK: +8/+5 AC: 8 Skill: 4 Hit Points: 2. Out of a wizard warlord, 2nd action includes getting 2 +4 range strikes (assuming playing winti), pago in the 1st rank and a living history to hold your 2nd or 3rd as you see fit as well as an additional hp .

Master Nax- ATK: +5/+3 AC: 15 Skill: 7 Hit Points: 3. Might as well be considered level 4 as he comes into play in that rank. Assuming you are going melee cav, then he ends up being ATK: +11/+9 AC: 15 Skill: 7, powerattack +6 Hit Points: 3

Sadly I see all of these as better than any of the level 4's (except for mariah, even then it's at least equal if not better than her) and that's just the chosen.

Freeks:

Barret: ATK: +1/+1 AC: 16 Skill: 5 Hit Points: 2 although with his order he turns into +6/+6+/+5, AC: 16 Skill: 5 HP: 3 3 swings, 16ac, 3hp, 5skill, what else do you really need to say about a character that enters play into the 4th rank.

Sir Erik Kaisen: ATK: +5/+3 AC: 15 Skill: 7 Hit Points: 2 Playing cav? well then, this character gives all your others +3 atk. If you have all 3 in the front rank (it is possible) then he ends up being +11/+9... while Barret ends up being.... +15/+15/+14... yeah, that's not enough attack :roll:

Iam Hotelen: one of the few more or less balanced level 4+ freeks as he trades his AC for extra swings. ATK: +1/+1/+1/+1 AC: 13 Skill: 5 Hit Points: 2

Moira Dunbar: ATK: +5/+3 AC: 15 Skill: 6 Hit Points: 2 with innate readying, at least it's only opt.

Shannon the Daring: the freek's only meh level 4 fighter type character imho. ATK: +5/+2 AC: 14 Skill: 5 Hit Points: 2


Now to the Devs:

Thibaud Rellion: ATK: +5/+1 AC: 13 Skill: 5 Hit Points: 2 If he started with the 16 ac, then gained +3 atk and +1hp if you won init by 10 or more, I could agree with the character. with only 13ac and the amount of ranged strikes in the environment, he is a coaster most times. Especially if you have to actually win init. If you have a 32 init roll total and the opponent rolls a 20, even though your roll is a total of 12 above them you still can't react...

Sir Magnus: ATK: +6/+1 AC: 15 Skill: 4 Hit Points: 2 Ability? What ability? I've yet to see this paladin ran for his ability. So just a stats type character, one decent swing, one bad swing and mediocre ac.

Sir Edgar Rellion: ATK: +5/+2 AC: 15 Skill: 4 Hit Points: 2 two mediocre/bad swings, average ac, average skill for a dev, two hp, Has reacts that are useful except that you have to win or lose init when you want to use him, which almost never happens.

Temur: ATK: +5/+2 AC: 15 Skill: 6 Hit Points: 3 Um.. yay? Ok, maybe not. decent stats other than the atk which is a decent swing and a bad swing. He can redirect and perform a melee strike IF he makes the checks. otherwise he's just stats which doesn't seem to work with the devs.


Really? focused on higher levels? yeah... right... For at least the first two sets devs had no faction focus whatsoever, now they are getting one, but it's still screwed over at least 9.5% of the time. Their higher level focus went out the window as their level 4's are still weaker than other faction's level 4's. Not to mention it's harder for the devs to get them to the front than those other factions. So by the time they do get to the front they are spent or will die before the end of the turn.
This is simply why I don't play devs anymore. It went from a faction that was good at getting higher level characters to the front as well as having very good higher level characters to a faction that had mediocre at best higher level characters that don't get to the front well at all.


Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:49 pm
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Post Re: Deverenian Faction Focus
Lol

No Mariah. No mention of how the first three could have a +2/+2 with a steed attached, or play cleric actions.

Eyt you took the time to show how overpowered other factions level 4's are when they are next to one another or have an item attached.

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Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:52 pm
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Post Re: Deverenian Faction Focus
TheMightyGoobahfish wrote:

Initiative:
Abilities that grant actions as a result of winning Initiative should not exist, or at most be extremely limited. Taking 3 actions at the start of the turn = bad.
Characters should instead receive bonuses for both winning and losing initiative. This way, characters are balanced either way, rather than being over-powered or underpowered depending on the initiative roll. As the card pool determines the average initiative roll, cards with only a win bonus will constantly be shifting power depending on the initiative bonuses available in the pool causing distortion.
Finally, it would more characterful if characters did not simply add to initiative but could add or subtract. If offensive bonuses are given for winning initiative and defensive for losing, more control elements could be implemented and would give more interesting play styles.



This is darn good line of thinking for how to handle initiative. Balanced since it's just a static eot bonus and not a 3+ order advantage. Adding and subtracting from initiative to contorl which bonuses your get......good thinking. :thumbsup:

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Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:59 pm
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Post Re: Deverenian Faction Focus
Cheers ^_^

It does make it so easy to design characters too...

EG

Boiler Plate. I give people the right to steal my ideas ^_^

Pleeb
Level 1 Evil Fighter
+1 10
+1 1
React: After you win Initiative Pleeb gains +2 Attack and Defend +5
React: After you lose Initiative Pleeb gains +2 AC and Riposte +5

Mook
Level 2 Evil Cleric Seer
+2 12
+3 1
React: Before rolling Initiative: Add or subtract 2 from your Initiative Roll.
Spend Order: Target Deverenian within 1 rank gets... +4 AC vs ranged strikes until the end of the turn?


Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:57 am
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Post Re: Deverenian Faction Focus
For the record, I think Barrett Yscar is an anomaly, because he is the best level 4 in the game. I don't think its fair to say "Devs should get a character in the vein of Barrett Yscar" without all factions getting an equally strong character.


I think the Devs level 3s are strong enough to compete, and in my Dev decks, my level 4s have been only Mother Deiane, Scelus, and Ghed Lionels(who is arguably the strongest non-unique cleric out there right now).

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Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:27 am
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Post Re: Deverenian Faction Focus
How is Barrett Yscar the best level 4 in the game? :shrug:

-nihil

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Darguth wrote:
I...agree...with Nihil

Arven wrote:
You are correct on all counts.

Yamauta wrote:
Thank you Nihil. That badass post was one of the most informative posts I've ever seen here...

Fintago wrote:
...Nihil...When someone puts a keyboard in front of you, you become the worst kind of person. I mean Christ.


Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:28 am
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Post Re: Deverenian Faction Focus
I think he ment the best level 4 stat wise.
Which I dont think hes wrong, its not like I looked though.
Ability wise I think it would have to be mother dianne or maybe severed of bone, just off the top of my head.

EDIT: I went back and looked. excluding CC there are alot of level 4s that are comparible. valaden, kul, etc.

I think barret gets a bad rep because of freek support, makes him seem alot more then he really is when just comparing level 4 to level 4.

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Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:52 am
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Post Re: Deverenian Faction Focus
Nihilistiskism wrote:
How is Barrett Yscar the best level 4 in the game? :shrug:

-nihil

He is one of the best, as well as having the support of a strong faction. One of the strongest at the moment, imho.

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Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:57 pm
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Post Re: Deverenian Faction Focus
Dutchess wrote:
Nihilistiskism wrote:
How is Barrett Yscar the best level 4 in the game? :shrug:

-nihil

He is one of the best, as well as having the support of a strong faction. One of the strongest at the moment, imho.


agreed, though i would say that Kul is better.


BACK ON TOPIC.

i agree with nihil in that we need at least one level four fighter that really makes you say "KILL IT NOW" while it is in the front rank, like barrett, kul, and validan all make you do.

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